Lifting Gas

Interesting. Would Icynene insulation stick to the envelope? Would it still need an outer envelope to protect it? It would probably inhibit combustion if the gas in the insulation is not oxygen.

Check out

http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/05/14/how-icynene-foam-insulation-works/

and

http://www.icynene.com/icynene-insulation/

{{    "I'll just top off with my homemade hydrolyzer."  Nav;Have you posted the details of your hydrolyzer?}}

Nah, that statement was a bit of forward, wishful thinking.

I DID post somewhere what it would cost on my electricity bill to hydrolyze enough H2 to fill an UltraLight Personal Dirigible with 250 cubic meters of H2 for 500 pounds of gross lift; something like $350, IIRC.
   Now that is Cheep! lift gas.

"Eric Raymond of Solar Flight makes brief mention of using small percentage of Halon to lower the flammability and explosiveness of hydrogen gas. He wasn't totally sure whether it was Halon or some other agent in the interview on the Airshipworld. "

Using Halon is brilliant.  We installed a Halon system back in the 80s and the claim (?) was that about 3% would inhibit all fire while not harming humans or equipment.  Even though it can no longer be produced in the US it would probably be worth keeping an eye out for these old tanks of Halon when the systems are changed.  I seem to also recall from the briefing that it was a heavy gas that settles towards the floor.  Not good for lift but most fire hazards (engines, electrical systems, and static discharge) are near the bottom of the cells anyway. 

This ongoing discussion has helped answer some of my questions about H2 and He mixtures. 

For buoyancy control I have not seen much mention of nurse systems.  Are there existing nurse pumps that are light enough to carry in an airship?  Even a heavy ground unit could help a lot with economy and lowering the buoyancy enough to resist inclement weather more than just tethering.  Even if you have a big enough hangar you might want to leave home sometimes. 

What about H(1)?  I understand that hydrogen's natural state is ads H2 but is there any practical way to separate it?  This would significantly increase hydrogen's lift to more than just 8% better than helium.  It would be safer since it would take less volume to achieve the same lift (with subsequent reduction in envelope weight further reducing the need for volume) and there would be less potential energy by volume should it catch fire.  Or not?

Hi folks!
i only joined recently and i am amazed at the work you have all put into the project.

the statistics and info from dude6935 and navigaiter are great.

i have been "balloon" crazy for years.

when i moved to paraguay for the first time i saw things reach a realistic level for me. mainly because land is so cheap. and the laws are flexible, they love innovation, so any idea to improve the economy (like an aerospace industry) would be welcomed with open arms.

i am going to follow your ideas with great interest! and i hope to be able to put something into practice over the next few years! then you can all come visit!

ant

He antchilton. Glad to have you. I am glad to hear that Paraguay is pretty flexible on aviation. Sounds like a good place to experiment. Hopefully whatever we develop here can be useful for people in countries all around the world. 

Welcome, Ant, glad to have you in the forum. I googled Paraguay, to see the topography. It has both flatlands and serious mountains. Flatlands are great for airships, it's very convenient to be able to float over the jungle and avoid the snakes, spiders, and mosquitoes. Flying close to mountains can be dangerous, but if enough altitude could be attained, just fly over them.
Actually, making new airships may be better in Paraguay than America. Less rules, and maybe a more acceptable public opinion of something new. Hopefully they are not as gun crazy as some in the USA that will shoot at anything, just for laughs.
Once the technology is developed, the whole process could be put in a container and shipped down, materials and all. Rent a big building and go to work. Not to say you could not develop the technology right there.
Get enough ships flying safely and soon you will have experienced pilots willing to pursue flying privileges in other countries air space. If the ships can show a safe flying record, it will be hard for the regulating agencies to deny flying privileges.

thanks for the warm welcome.

i have been checking out some data and apparently paraguay is in the top ten for airports in the world. meaning they have hundreds, this is mainly due to there being such a terrible road system. i can see a lot of potential for these blimps and even small semis down here.

brazil has a great history with zeppelins, the graf made many trips to rio and there are still a large number of fans about.

about a place to build or put something together, land is dirt cheap (excuse the pun). to give you an idea, i bought two lots recently, in a developing area, for a little over 1,500$ each, 9 million guaranies if you want to do the math.
they are just 12 by 36 metres, but afterwards it got me interested in larger plots...and i will keep you posted!

now this is about lifting gas, so, i was mostly interested in thermal blimps to begin with, still am for safety reasons, but hydrogen has always been the goal, since graf and the 30s. with these ideas of yours in mind i have thought of a double air bag, top half hydrogen, bottom hot air. if done properly, and it will be, this becomes safer and improves the lift of the hydrogen.

im new to the idea of a "small" blimp, so im still working on it.

I would like to hear more on your concept. Would it be 2 bags in a shroud, one over the other? Or would it be 1 bag with a partition? Or something else? 

I believe having one on top of the other is the best and safest way.

best because you can heat the hydrogen without direct heat, safest because you can release the hydrogen part if facing flames or a fuel leak.

having read sections of bladders and internal gas bags i find this better still. and i have some crazy ideas,lol, who deosnt?

i like the light weight cargo netting as a way to seperate the sections.

OK;
IT is good to completely review a post start to finish.
After reviewing all that was said here I basically have not seen reason to change my mind.
I'm including an update of a table I posted earlier with corrections:

(For an ULTRALITE- Hydrogen rules)

 Is there anyone [Swampie?] who will build a nice prototype hydrogen hydrolyzer?

 Only two catches, just working correctly aint enough.  Like the SkyBoat, its gotta be Cheep & Efficient! This is the workin mans SkyBoat.  And its gotta be portable and set up easy so the airshipper can operate the generator at a remote operation site.

[Commercial "HoGens" r way, WAY too expensive, cost more than our whole dam ship!].

   I'm visualizing some of those blue vinyl 50-gallon drums here, containing;   Huge, rolled-up electrodes/insulators of copper screening alternating with polyester sheets submerged in electrolytic saltwater perhaps.

   I think our HoGen should be powered by one to four solar panels, ie, 200 to 800 watts!     [$200 -- 800 total cost. Panels r down to a dollar a watt now that China's dumped theirs on the market]

  That way an airshipper wouldnt have to pay big electricity bills forever.  And could float forever if he had a little HoGen inside the ship to replace the leaked H2 in-flight!  ;-]

 Is there anyone [Swampie?] who will build a nice prototype hydrogen hydrolyzer?

-navigaiter

I'm going after two approaches. 

1. use electrochemistry  with the Iron threaded rods in NaCl solution, or 

2. the sodium aluminate reaction. 

Both have excessive heat problems that have to be resolved. It does no good to make H2 if the corresponding steam production as a side effect puts more water vapor in the bag than H2.

I have a copper condenser ( exactly like the ones you see in chemistry lab in school but made out of copper and much bigger. I need to make a peristaltic pump to circulate the coolant into the condenser. If I can get the vapor pressure of the water vapor down to a respectable 2 mmHg, then I have a separate tube full of CaCl2 ( dessicant) that will take out most of the rest of it out.

Both of the choices of reaction above were made because they don't produce oxygen.

So I'm closer than I was last time this topic came up, but still a few things to finish.

Why are you worried about O2 production?  Just vent it to the air. Stay away from candles.

For a self contained hydrogen generator on a blimp several steps here are needed.

1. Thermoelectric Dehumidifier for atmospheric water generation with a valve system to allow flow adjustment.
2. Membrane electrolysis with nafion membrane using baking soda as electrolytic solution and water from atmospheric dehumidification.
3. Use the thermoelectric cooler to dehumidify hydrogen gas or atmospheric water depending on valve positions.
4. Recycle water to electrolysis.

So it would do batch production of H2. With the gas bag as storage and solar power. Arduinos hooked to sensors would monitor gas concentrations, etc.

First stage makes water from the air using dehumidifier
Second stage makes H2 from the water. Stored O2 vented to the generator for altitude and general efficiency. 

The trick is getting it to be about 5 lbs for the whole gig.

Solar laminates (no frame and less weight) can be had for ~50cents a watt here is link.

http://www.sunelec.com/solar-laminates-c-47.html

* DO NOT USE NaCl as electrolyte that would make chlorine gas, hydrogen, and bleach. Dangerous unless you are making Bleach or Sodium Perchlorate in that case proceed with caution. Use baking soda.

What I would give for a small nuclear battery....http://www.gizmag.com/smaller-nuclear-battery/13076/

...shows how to make a rudimentary electrolyzer which could be scaled-up to fit a five gallon bucket and then... to fit a 50-gallon barrel ?

anyway, this doesnt look like rocket sceince and is something anyone could make.  [nearly anyone]

Nice video on making hydrogen. I plan to catch rain, should be pure enough. I'll follow this guy to see what electrolyte he recommends. Ideally I'm hoping to attach solar panels inside the top of my clear plastic ship.

Is the plan  to  buy your initial fill of  hydrogen  from  a gas supplier , and then maintain it, with DIY hydrogen ?
 I dont  really  see  making  the entire volume  this way . as you  would  be hard pressed, just to  maintain  a captured volume  in a days operation  , just  to have to  maintain the loss again  the next day.  It would take  quite a while   to generate  enough in a small scale   generator .
  But I do  see it working   with  a store bought initial  fill  to just  replenish  the  daily loss  due to perm.  That  would  do very  well I think   

My plan is to start with helium. As the helium escapes, hydrogen is made to replace it. Using separate cells keeps the gasses apart. Cell management is basically squeezing a low cell into the others through a manifold. Once a cell is empty, it gets the hydrogen.
When money allows, more helium is purchased. A hydrogen cell surrounded by helium cells won't have much access to oxygen, so I hope to keep the risk down that way. Escaped gasses mix at the top of the ship, to be released if necessary.

http://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/news/graphene_creator_in_new_discovery_1_3459560  Graphene stops helium from escaping from enclosure.