Sources of Hydrogen

Hello,

as far as I don't missunderstand the "Hydrogen Stuff" thread we are going to use hydrogen for our airship. But where should we get the hydrogen from? We could buy it, but on the long run I would prefer to have my own generator to do some electrolysis. Because it makes you more independent.
I searched the internet but if I enter "DIY hydrogen generator" or something like that I just find people who want to upgrade their car so they can use hydrogen instead of normal fuel. I found no single DIY hydrogen generator.
Maybe just making some electrolysis is so easy that nobody talks about it and I am just too dense to understand this but I think generating hydrogene is more than just putting two wires into a bottle of water?
Does anyone of you has some information about this? Possibly even some instructions on how to generate more hydrogene than just a tiny bit?

Greetings,

erniejunior

See:

http://smallblimps.lefora.com/2010/06/09/discussion-on-where-to-buy-wholesale-quantity-lift/

I'm just shooting from the hip here, so it's easy to be very wrong. Overcharging a wet cell battery produces hydrogen, so how about using the generating power of the ship to make H2 on the fly? Just a little constant addition to the bag to make up for loss. Hopefully the battery doesn't mind, but it will get hot, and you will have to add water regularly.
It looks like we don't want air between the cells and the envelope. Either helium or hydrogen, maybe exhaust smoke if it doesn't have much oxygen in it. I keep thinking a constant purging of the area between the cells and the envelope would flush out lost H2.
  You really would need a muffler that positively can't pass a backfire to the exhaust. I would want double redundancy there.

Ernie ,  As a rule  you will always  spend more energy  making hydrogen  than you get  from it .  That is  if you  want to use it as a  source of energy.  In making  enough for a  volume of lift gas  at home   would be  a huge  undertaking , and  maybe  quite dangerous  if  you  make a mistake .  You make  H at one end  and pure O2 on the other of a electrolyze process  .  Pure O2 is a hazard  too,  as it  supports combustion  very  well , So  that  end of  the  gas  generator needs to be  dealt  with too if your doing this inside .   
 There  are  Pure hydrogen generators  on the market  now   used in labs  and some in the welding industry,  that  could produce the  volume  needed , maybe in a few days to a week of 24 hour operation.   That  would by  my pick  to  DIY hydrogen  at home and  doing it  safely .  
 The  Easy Button  for this  is  just to  buy it at  gas suppliers. Its  a  ready supply,  tightly packaged,  guaranteed pure , transportable,  and can  fill the  envelope  in just  a few minutes  instead of  days or a  week . The weather  window  for outside inflation is  small and  is a big consideration  to make ,  even  for Hot Air balloons. Quicker is always better  here.    
 Here  is something to think on .  If your  filling  slow  with a H generator , Where are you going to  fill it  at ?   
 A  weak  flabby half filled  envelope is  going to  catch  a lot of  air  being out side . The longer  any part of it is in contact with the ground   the grater  the chance of  damage.     The only  safe way to  fill it over an extended period of time  would be inside to protect it from becoming a sail and possible  damage .  

Ernie;

I used a PC power supply ( 20 amps) to generate 110 cc/min of Hydrogen only. You can pick an electrolysis reaction that internally uses up the Oxygen like I did. If you need more design details, I can PM them to you, however, I think you said that you were under 21. For legal reasons I would need permission to send it to you.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, You are not the problem, insurance companies and legal concerns are. When I was your age I freely ordered from scientific suppliers on a regular basis. After the Oklahoma Farrar Building, and the 9-11 World Trade Center attacks, the Chemistry landscape in the USA changed drastically.  So legal tail coverage is an unfortunate necessity.

How long to  obtain  7-8  thousand  cu feet at  that output ?

 I did the math  for  a 7500 cu ft  envelope
7500 (cu ft)) / (110 cc per min ) = 1 930 694.09 mins
1 930 694.09 / 60 min in 1 hr = 32 178.2348 hrs
32 178.2348 / 24 hrs in a day = 1 340.75978 days
1 340.75978 / 365 days a year = 3.67331447 years for 1 unit on line
 with 4 units on line  24 -7  about a year ,
 with 8 units                       6 months
 with 16                             3 months
 with 32                             1 1/2 months 
 with 64                             20 days
 with 128                           10 days
 

If I have an electrochemical cell that absorbs 2 volts and I am passing 20 amps through it, and my power supply puts out 10 volts, I can pass that 20 amps through 5 cells in series and get out 5 times the gas. If I have ten power supplies in the same arrangement I'll get 50 times the gas that I get from one cell.

When I built the 110 cc/min cell, it was built for a 110 cc/min application. When I go to a higher production rate the design will be different!!
 
 
There is a gob of information on the web about electrochemistry. There is not as much about electrochemical engineering because it requires a chemical engineer to do the job.
 
So when we're making comparisons, let's realize that not all things scale in a linear fashion.

The first design ( pictured elsewhere in this forum) was a proof of concept.

The second design ( being built now) will be for the R/C sized ship

The third design will be for the man rated ship.

You can bet money they will all be different!

Thats for sure .  I would like to see  a  7500 Cu ft production  in one hour machine .... Holy Crap!   
 Just kidding,  I don't think  anyones house hold elect service  could handle it. 
But  what do you  anticipate  your production  time  will be   for full scale volume Swampie?
  Heres another  question, that I  seriously  don't have  any clue  for  . How  do you store the gas you make ?  If its going  directly into the envelope, Which I  see as the safest way , Where  are you  going to  inflate it ?  Ideally we would have a  dedicated hanger  to  do all this in . But  thats  not  a  reality  to  guess at for all of us.   Compressing hydrogen   into  tanks  is something  NASA /  Airgas,  does  and  thats  not something  garage level  technology  can  do  safely from  what I understand .    
http://www.hydropac.com/HTML/hydrogen-compressor.html

and another one   in sizes from 1/4 hp  to 200 hp http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/Fluitron/Hydrogen_Gas_Compressor/88863/0?fromSpotlight=1&paidFromBricklet=1&fromAreaId=1594 

If the production takes more than 12h we should not fill the gas directly into the airship. I would use several small models of these gas storages (more than one because of transportation issues). Unfortunately they don't tell you the prices but I think since they make you custom models, the make custom prices.
The storages can be fit to be fixed to the ground for outdoor storage or to get into a car (of course a big one). 

Good thought  But  they  do not  super pressure like a  steel tank  does , so the volume of gas storage  is going  to  be about the same size as your  airship envelope  holds. Not very  transportable .  Unless  it was in many  smaller bags and many  trips  .  Or  maybe it could  fit  in a very  large U haul  truck. It  would  fit in a  Tractor trailer  rig with a 40 foot box. But then is the issue of D.O.T  and moving  explosive gas  like that ?  
 Those smaller H compressors  may  be part of the solution  to home storage , Need to  research the method of  getting it from the compressor  into  super pressure steel  or aluminum tanks  with no  air in them   

We need to look up how they did it in the old days. The Germans filled a hundred large zeps, no problem. I saw a picture of a couple of wagons making hydrogen. There are chemical procedures. There is steam on hot iron.
   For a long time I had a pic of the Hindenburg and ZMC2 sharing the hangar at Lakehurst, with a load of people below, they looked like ants in comparison to the awesome size of the ship. To the front of the Hindenburg was a large tube, I'll bet it was topping off right there and then, even with all those people around. NO SMOKING!

Check this out.  1909 technology, 98% pure H2

Attachment: 1909 - 0522.pdf (320.0KB)

Dont have a clue about this one  . Sent  e mail  for info .
http://www.angstrom-advanced.com/index.asp?page=Balloon

Sounds quite good. Please tell us the price as soon as you know it.

Using the numbers in post #8  ( 7500 ft^3) and the equipment in post #13 we get:

This is with real , now available equipment. I'll leave it to someone else to come up with the cost numbers. ( the average household with a 200 amp service could muster 22kw using every plug in the house....not likely to happen)

At 10 cents a Kw hour, that should be about 125 dollars to fill the bag. Not bad, plus you could run during off-peak hours and save more money. 

58 * 21.237 * .1 = 123.1746

Now I'm  concerned   I  sent this  e mail   Kinda  straight and to the point wouldn't you say .

  I  would like  more info  on  the  Balloon generator   seen on  this page  of your web site . http://www.angstrom-advanced.com/index.asp?page=Balloon

Dear Phil,
What kind of Hydrogen Generator do you need? How large of the Balloon you are going to fill?
Best Regards,
Sales Department
Angstrom Advanced Inc.
50 Braintree Hill Park, Suite 201    BRAINTREE   ?  Where  the hell is  that ?
Braintree, MA, 02184
Phone: 781-519-4765
Fax: 781-519-4766
Http://www.angstrom-advanced.com  

LOL. In my experience, this kind of sales person is only helpful after you answer the questions they supply. Hope you can get a straight answer.

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