Gas lift , Hot Air hybred re visited

Holy  crap...  Whats  the  deal  with  the forum?  This is my THIRD attempt  to post  this .
  Lets  fill  the  Donut hole  with a hot air balloon for ballast control!   , This  RIM  shroud is  filled  with  balls of  gas lift  in a  layout like  a string of beads  on a  bracelet   , enough  to  lift  its own  weight  plus   the  weight of the hot Air  envelope  thats  mounted in  the  center , and  help share the  weight of any other  power sources like batterys  or the  weight of  a generator     When the  rim  lifts,  it opens the Hot Air balloon  enough  to  be  inflated  with hot air.  the hot Air  balloon  lifts pilot , gondola  and propane  and  engine  if using  a standard  gas powered  one .  So  when  cool    the  ship  has  anchor  weight  on the ground. .
 Some plus's here ,  The  shroud  and balls  will  capture  and help hold  over all  temp  better  for  a more  constant  lift factor  and  less propane use . Only  2 main  frame members ,  Circumferencr and  top  hoop  rings  and  guy  wires .  Easy  to  disasemble .  Smaller size Hot Air balloon     
   How  can  we use  the  ball inflation pressure  to  put the  RIMS  shroud in tension?   I'm  seeing  guy wires   that  criss cross the balls   with a  circumference ring   and a upper  hoop  ring  near the top of the hot Air  balloon . and  the lower  guys  going to the turn table   so  the entire  assembly  moves as one .  It  would look like  spokes in  a wheel  with  balls  inside between  the spokes   for a better mental pitchure .  

The pic above was  drawn quick last night   , but  shows the gas lift balls  at about  12 foot in  dia.  compared to  the size of the single pilot  Cloud hopper  balloon . and  the over all size compared to the  trucks in the photo.   The  top  ring  will  need  a special  pocket  sewn into the  Hot Air  envelope  to  secure it  to .  Thats  about the only  mod   needed to the Hot Air  Envelope .  The  gas  pressure in the balls  will  do  the   main tensioning .   .
 The balls  will need a  tether  at  their  equator running to  the  circumference  ring  so  they  cant  push to the center   trying to  work  their way out of the  sideways  V  shape  the guy wires  make. .
 I'm  going  to  graft paper  the  design  out  and  see   what   can  be done .  then  model it   using  regular balloons  and  thread  to  test  the pneumatics . 
""
 .  Hoppers   have as little as 21,000 ft³ (595 m³) of envelope volume (for a perfect sphere this would mean a radius of around 5.22 m (17 ft)). This means we will need about 25,000 cubic feet to lift 200 pounds
 right at  34  foot  in  diameter .   ""  Or  near 68 feet dia.  over all  ship size
 
  We can  adjust  the  gas balls size  to  lift  what  ever we need   in  relation to the  Hot Air lift  and size  so  the ship  will  always  be heavy   when  the Hot air envelope is  cooled .   

The  Graph paper worked out  placing   balls  around the  36 foot  dia   hot  air  envelope   to :
 11 - 12 foot  balls  for a total  lift of  396  pounds 
  And 9 - 14 footers  for a lift of  504 lbs. 

This configuration has real promise. I like a non-separating ship built like this with expandable gas cells surrounding a hot air cloud hopper. The whole ship is held together by macrame type netting. I would not worry about a cover right off, just getting into the air is enough for starters.
  Bringing the hybrid gas/hot air system into play is a nice way to get variable lift. With the rotating drive unit below, the craft would be maneuverable. The gas cells will hold the ship up while the burner heats the center cell.

Several months ago, I suggested POV-RAY a persistence of vision ray tracer. It is free from pov-ray.org. It allows you to make 3D models and render them as two D pictures or as a series of pix as an animation. These are some things I did.

Swampie  can you  Pov-ray  this set up  we're looking at  here? 
 For me  I could build a Model  WAY   before I would advance   over the learning curve for  CAD stuff . 
  I've sat  down  with it  and  tried ,  and read ,  and  tried  some more .  I just  dont  "get  it"  for  what  ever reason and  resort to  pencil  and paper  or MS  Paint   and I have used  Open office  some , to  draw stuff  in  3 d perspectives .  
   For  the majority of the  Guy wires  I  was thinking  of  using  a  super strong , no  stretch light weight  Dyneema line used in  paragliders  instead of  stainless steel  aircraft  cable  .   Where  ever  they  criss crossed  each other on the lift balls ,  they  would  need a good  quality ware insulation there .
  In doing  the  tubing  weight   for the  circumference  ring  and upper  ring , came out  to 278  feet worth of  1.5 " X  .035 wall  6061 t6  aluminum.  the  weight  came out to   a whopping  52.6  pounds  !   Keeping in mind  that  the tubing  will  be  reinforced   with  the  Guy  wires  in  tension  all  around  the perimeter . 
  Wow 
       

This POV-RAY text :

  // Hybrid-Ship.pov
   // 12-05-2010
 
  #include "colors.inc"
   
   
#if (0) 
  camera {
  
    location <0,0,-50>     //  1 case  side view
    look_at <0, 0, 0>
    sky <0,0,-1>
  }
 
#else   
  camera {
  
    location <0, -50.0, 0>    //  0 case   end view
    look_at <0, 0, 0>
  }
 
 
#end
  
  
#declare xkk= 1.0;
background{White * 1.0} 
#declare xxx=25;
  light_source { <xxx, xxx, xxx> color White * xkk shadowless}
  light_source { <-xxx, xxx, xxx> color White * xkk  shadowless}  
  light_source { <-xxx, -xxx, xxx> color White * xkk  shadowless}
  light_source { <xxx, -xxx, xxx> color White * xkk  shadowless}
  light_source { <xxx, xxx, -xxx> color White * xkk  shadowless}
  light_source { <-xxx, xxx, -xxx> color White * xkk  shadowless}  
  light_source { <-xxx, -xxx, -xxx> color White * xkk  shadowless}
  light_source { <xxx, -xxx, -xxx> color White * xkk  shadowless}

#if(0) union {
    
#declare ss= 15.0;

cylinder {
  <-ss,0,0>,  <0,0,0>  0.1
  pigment { colour Red*0.5 }
}   
      cylinder {
  <0,0,0>,  <ss,0,0>  0.1
  pigment { colour Red }
}

cylinder {
  <0,-ss,0>,  <0,0,0>  0.1
  pigment { colour Green*0.5 }
}

cylinder {
  <0,0,0>,  <0,ss,0>  0.1
  pigment { colour Green }
}

cylinder {
  <0,0,-ss>,  <0,0,0>  0.1
  pigment { colour Blue }
}

cylinder {
  <0,0,0>,  <0,0,ss>  0.1
  pigment { colour Blue }
}
 }
#end

difference {

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 11.0
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <.8,0,.8> }
}

// create a box that extends between the 2 specified points
box {
  <-11, -11, -11>  // one corner position <X1 Y1 Z1>
  < 11,  0,  11>  // other corner position <X2 Y2 Z2>
}
 }
 
cone {
  <0, 0, 0>,  11.0,
  <0, -11, 0>, 2.782608696
   pigment { colour rgb <.8,.8,0> }
  // open
}

#declare xxrad = 5.0;

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 xxrad
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <1,0,0> }
   translate <   11.0+xxrad,0,0>  rotate<0,0,0>
}

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 xxrad
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <1,0,0> }
   translate <   11.0+xxrad,0,0>  rotate<0,45,0>
}

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 xxrad
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <1,0,0> }
   translate <   11.0+xxrad,0,0>  rotate<0,90,0>
}

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 xxrad
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <1,0,0> }
   translate <   11.0+xxrad,0,0>  rotate<0,135,0>
}

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 xxrad
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <1,0,0> }
   translate <   11.0+xxrad,0,0>  rotate<0,180,0>
}

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 xxrad
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <1,0,0> }
   translate <   11.0+xxrad,0,0>  rotate<0,225,0>
}

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 xxrad
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <1,0,0> }
   translate <   11.0+xxrad,0,0>  rotate<0,270,0>
}

// create a sphere shape
sphere {
  <0, 1, 0> // center of sphere <X Y Z>
 xxrad
       // radius of sphere
   //scale <1,4.52,1> // <= Note: Spheres can become ellipses by uneven scaling 
   pigment { colour rgb <1,0,0> }
   translate <   11.0+xxrad,0,0>  rotate<0,315,0>
}

Generated these two pictures, one side view and one bottom view.

WOW   how long did it take ? 
 In  the  front view  would  we not  see 5  balls  instead of  3 ?

that looks stunning.

cant see it reaching any great speeds though, no streamlining what so ever.

can any other shapes be used with the same idea of a central balloon?

and isnt it going to be hard to dock, with a balloon that big how can you see? cameras?

i just want to know what you guys are thinking about doing with the final ship of this style and size.

 Start  at  the  first post and see the  drawing in post 2    .  This  ship  will not  separate  , It's using  the vari lift   of  the hot air  for  ballast control ,  providing  a way  to land  with  weight on the ground, and also the ability   to  take off again , VTOL    The Hot Air balloon  will  stay  spread out , UP  and open in the donut hole  to  allow  for  re inflation of hot  air. The  lift  of  the  balls  does  this job at least ,  Which   takes  a lot of  the load  duty off  the hot  air  lift . In  theory   you could  fly   much  cooler  ,which  means  a longer  flight time .  
    The  Idea is  to  have a  round circular  tube  frame  at  the top   and  equator line  that are  guy  wired   like spokes on a wheel ,criss crossing  where they  intersect  the lift balls ,  with bottom lines going to the  gondola's  turn table  . The inflation of  the lift balls   puts the  guys in  tension  and  also  the shroud   that covers it .  The lift  balls  will be  attached to the  equator  hoop   so  they  cant  press inward to collapse  the donut hole , only  inflate in place  to  add  tension  .  So  when  its  fully  inflated   its looks like a  UFO, in  every  aspect  with  aerodynamic  shape .
 Could other shapes be used ?   Sure !   maybe a triangle !  I haven't  played  with that  shape  yet  But  the  round shape  seemed  more  self  supporting and rigid .  Its Sure  Worth  a  shot  Though ! 
  What  may  need to happen with a  round one , is to use vertical upright spreaders    between  the  top  ring  and a second  bottom  ring   to  help  keep the  gondola   from  pulling  upward   But its  weigh  alone  may be  adequate .  This is  where  building a model  pays off .    
 I want to add to this   that the  weight lift of the balls  not only  carries  the  hot air balloon  envelope  weight ,  but  also  could  carry  the  weight of  a  adequate   solar  cell package ,   batteries ,   or  large  enough generator   to  provide  ample power  to   not have to  fly  under powered.  That  is  the  main  goal   here ,  not  to  make  a flying  saucer ..... but thats cool  too  ! .

this is a rosiere in reverse.
wouldnt it be a good idea to have some cover which kept the heat in, like a second balloon, or parachute, a very large one.
it would also serve to heat the ballonets

 Not  so  much in  reverse   but  a little  different .  The Air foil shaping  shroud  in  tension   will help  moderate  the  heating  to  a more uniform   temp  through out  the ship ,  but   to  actually  add  quantifiable  heat lift to the gas lift remains to be  seen .  Just  keeping  a steady  temp   or  slowing  temp  shifts  would  be grate !  It  will  for sure  help  with maintaining  Hot Air  temp  within  the  hot air  envelope  as  the air currents  that tend to cool  it off  rapidly  wont  be  directly on it any longer  The crown of a HAB contains the  parachute top. It  will need to be  always  exposed   as  the parachute top  IS  a main  control function  of  flying hot air .  Its  your  DOWN elevator .  A way  to  dump  hot  air  quickly  when you need to  descend  rapidly. Nothing  can be  allowed to  obstruct  its  function .   Don't leave home  with out it    

You're right about seeing the additional spheres, looks loke a little clipping occured. As to the time, From the beginning of the file down to the first "difference" command is part of what I call BLANK.POV. That's my starting defaults.

So I cutoff a sphere, added a truncated cone and placed 8 spheres around it. Some time was spent getting the proportions off your drawing ( slight reverse engineering). The other lines can be added if I get a little more info.

When I  graph papered it out   around a 36 foot hot air  center ,  with  14 foot gas balls  around it  I  came up  with 9  in count   and a little space between  them  ,  With  12 foot balls  I got  11  in count and  all touching  even  slightly  compressing  against one another. 
   I placed a ring at the top of  the balloon  and  drew a straight line  from  the  ring  to the top of the ball  and  past .  I did the same for the bottom   ring   at  about  the  same distance   from  the  center.  And  drew  a line  from  the ring  to  the  bottom of the ball   out untill it intersected  the  top line  to  form  the  Sideways V shape.  
   The  point of the  V  is  now the over all  dia .  Where  the  line  hits the ball is  where the guys  criss cross  for     both top  and bottom guy sets  .   Radiating  from  the center of the  criss cross  is  another line  going to  the  outer  ring  for  more  support  and  reducing  the  distance  from  the seperation of  guy line  attachment points around  the  central  ring  .  It could have  more   up to  and including  a  spider web  type  structure .  if done in  the paraglider line   it  wouldn't  weigh   nothing .
 Here is  a modified  drawing
 

And for  what  ever reason  I  was logged out  ,  and  still showed logged in ...???   
The  paraglider line  is hell  for  strong  y'all  trust me on  this one. Its MORE  than  adequate  for the job!  
 The other  main  thing is  tethering  the balls  (  sounds painful don't it  LOL)   to  the  center hoop  so  they  cant  creep  inward  ,  trying to  escape  the guy pressure and collapse  the Hot Air balloon in the middle.  This puts the ring in  compression   too  making  it  more  rigid  in combination  with  the  guy  tension  over  and under   the  lift balls.   
 A second  feature I noticed with this  is  the  center hoop  does not have to be perfectly  round  and  centered  It  could be oval  and  pulled up  tight  to one  half the balls  and  long  and tapered  to  the back   producing  a  true  airfoil  shape .  Deltoid pumpkin  seed ..?   The  aluminum  will  flex  enough  to do  this  without  breaking  in  a  situation  this large  Stressing it   some  will  add  rigidness.  Just  food  for thought .  .  
  But  here is  the  drawing  And I've got  to  go  to  work  now  ..dang it  ...

  It would be very interesting to model this thing using a beach ball, some dodge balls, and a hula hoop. If the hula hoop is not big enough, there are drip irrigation pipes that can be used. Connectors are available.
   For a flyer, three foot and one foot mylar party balloons are available. For the perimeter ring, and the top ring, there is foam crack filler available at Home Depot that comes in all sizes, and is ultra light. Then cover with heat-shrink window insulation for that UFO look. Tie it up with string to find the best rigging configuration.
  Just to be whacky, for experimenting, spin could be put on this for flight stability. The pilot would be below in his gondola, using his rudder and prop to control the direction of flight.
  I really don't know if the unit would be unstable without spin, but it's fun to think about.
  ET, eat your heart out.

[[This configuration has real promise. I like a non-separating ship built like this with expandable gas cells surrounding a hot air cloud hopper.]]]

I agree that the hot air balloon surrounded by a lenticular ring of H2 balloons is a good design. It overcomes the hot air balloon problem of short flight duration because it doesn't depend solely upon hot air for lift, just for varying the major lift of hydrogen balloons.

   But I only like it as a separating two-part airship because that would make it easier to construct it as two Ultra Light-type airships and an unregistered, unlicensed, uninsured, UL ship is where it's at for us working class slobs who wanna float.

   I believe it can be built in the shape of an aerodynamic horshoe so that it can develop some aerodynamic lift as it moves forward. This lift would enable it to glide cross-range in the case of engine failure. AeroLift is a good safety feature as well as a secondary, backup, way of varying the total airship buoyancy.

  The central hot air chamber can probably be enclosed in a Rescue Blanket type of shroud to hold the heat longer and save some of the weight of a lot of burner kerosene.

[this topic moved over from the gondola poll]

[[  Heat  and cooling of  the lift gas are   totally dependant on  weather  conditions  and  can  vary a lot ,Ask  any  HAB pilot . Plus  the time lag   for   this  temp  change to take  effect  will  put you  at risk  unless it is   fairly  quick ,   and  that  would  take   the  BTU output of  a  HAB system  to  accomplish  that in  a  safe operational manner  ]]
 
     Warm air from the engine combustion and blower exhaust has but a small weight penalty while it varies the H2 density when directed through the lift balloons in the envelope.
     No one ever said it was a fast buoyancy shift, it doesn't have to be, since its not the ONLY lift-changer. There's aerodynamic lifting-body assistance available and the old ballast technique. Consider it as a buoyancy shift-assist method, not a flight dynamic control.
    "Safe operational manner" is scare phrase to make a debating point. Safety is nothing but pure conjecture at this phase of unknown final airship design.
    Leave warm air lift-assistance on the design table. If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to use it but they shouldnt pooh-pooh it prematurely.  Dont pooh-pooh anything unless u prove it first with known experiments.    
   

We're  dealing  with 2 different subjects here  .  First  the  CPS which I " think"  ( correct me if I'm  wrong)  the   gondola  poll post  was to   fit one to the  CPS  . ,    It  will not  have   room  or lift for  anything  except   Minimal  bare bones   flight  with  good goof proof  control .  This  means you go  forward  you  go up .  You  slow down , you go  down . Adding  complexity and  weight  of lift altering  components  by  heat or other means  is   not  what  we want here . Plus  being  a   single  envelope  the  exhaust   theory   wont work with out  again , adding  design  and operational complexity and  weight .  But I never said it  was  poop . It  and  a lot of other   good ideas   have  relevance   with  your personal   concepts  But  not with  the  CPS   and At  this  stage .
  Second   Safe operational  manner , is  not  a scare tactic phrase  .  In  the UL  world   poor lift, or complexity to  control , or   control in general ,   is  taboo .  Its  bad  Mojo  ,  and it  will  get you   in  trouble  or  worse fast.  Any  UL pilot  will  attest to  this  fact .  It's  not  a  debating point. If  it dont  handle  worth  crap  ,  dont  fly it  because it  will  kill you . Bottom line  and point blank .   This is  also  why  HAB pilots  wont  fly  in  extremely hot  conditions  .  BAD LIFT  =  Poor control = No Fly .  I'm  not making  this  stuff up.  Its the   fundamentals and common  sense  of  safe  flight,  no  matter  what  you  fly .              
  To  me , it would be  terribly  disrespectful  to   disregard the  critical information brought to light from   those who  have gone before us finding out   the hard way , in  their  quest for flight. I dont know  about you  ,  but I  will uphold  those warnings to  the best of  my  ability.  .  
      

[[    To  me , it would be  terribly  disrespectful  to   disregard the  critical information brought to light from   those who  have gone before us finding out   the hard way , in  their  quest for flight. I dont know  about you  ,  but I  will uphold  those warnings to  the best of  my  ability.  .  ]]

It's good to hear a sermon on the sanctity of human life and safety now and then  ;-]  Keeps us cautious.

Perhaps safety critiques should occur if and after the airship prototype has been made?  Predicting the failure of a dee-sign before it has been developed and modeled is not helpful but is merely adverse speculation and it prevents new departures from venturing forth in advanced material and techniques.

 When the design is ready to fly, then and only then, should safety concerns be pointed out. Because it is at that point that work-arounds and safety remedies can be visualized.

Early on in this forum, adverse criticism was abounding and its been my duty to uphold the idea that any criticism sounds like negative input and is bad for the goal of this forum and is therefore......... pointless here.

In fairness, the critiquer feels he or she is being positive by saving the inventor from performing some useless work, but, by hearing negativity, in advance, the inventor probably won't even start the work due to the downer environment.

Imho, it is more productive to support the inventor's favorite ideas, whether or not it scares us personally. No one's gonna die in this forum. To be helpful, tell them how to make it safer rather than simply saying why it isn't safe.

** two examples of what could be hyped as safety issue show-stoppers are the use of H2 lift gas and 4-mil PE bags and envelopes. Either one could keep affordable personal airships on the ground. We will deal with them but who needs more "concerned" safety warnings from people without solutions?....***