Hydrogen price from Airgas

 I just  got a quote on  hydrogen   from  Airgas .  For 1064 cu  ft  cost 168 .oo  delivered . AND  its  use  has to clear  their  safety  department  . I passed  , the balloon is  aluminumized nylon  and has  grounding  leaders ..just  FYI  .

[[[  H2   For 1064 cu  ft  cost 168 .oo  delivered   ]]] 

    My ESB Unit Converter says that's 30 cubic meters. Airshippers' Rule of thumb says that a cubic meter will lift a kilogram, 2.2 pounds.

   My SkyBoat UL design requires gross lift of 500 pounds, 250 for the ship and 250 for the pilot and payload.   500 lbs = 227 kg  which needs  227 cubic meters of H2.    227 cM /  30 cM  =  7.6 tanks like the ones invent man  quoted  *  $168  = $1,271 to fill a minimalist UL Dirigible with lift gas.  OUCH!

   Case proven for  making our own H2?   I've done a rough math for electrolyzing H2 at 12 cents a watt and it came to ~ $350!  not including the cost of a DIY  unit and  water, of course.

UP! is EZ and Cheep!
~~ in a SmallBlimp

The  price  drops the more you get,  And  you  will need to  set up  a corp  account , That means you  need to  form  a LLC . Which is  a good  thing  !. because  all your  expenditures   on  your  airship  project can  be  tax deductible  . I formed my own LLC  and obtained my  fed EIN #   right  from  the comforts  of  home  and it cost  me 75 dollars  in  filing fees .  I am  a legal  business entity  
     This price  is  with  delivery  and  haz mat  charges  tacked on .
 So  with   what  you   need to  fly   would  cost  about  850 to 900  .  it's still a  chunk  though.. But its  pure and  pressurized  ready  to   fill your  airship . The  question is     How long  will it  last ?  If you  can  get  half a year on it ,  Is it  worth it ?   

Also if you  are planing on making your own  H , Having  a  initial  store bought  fill    would lessen  your  requirements    to  just "topping off production numbers "  to keep  you  flying more . 
 The problem I see here  is  that once you hit  full free space volume  in your  envelope or  gas bags  ,  You  then  need to  start  pressurizing    even  at   just  5 pounds or less,  lets  say . Compressing  H  or  He  is no  small task  even  to  5 pounds over  ambient  air pressure as I have  found out . Making  sure  the  H  stays
un contaminated  in  this  process  is  even more critical.   So  with  cylinders  you  have  solved  that problem at  2200 psi  at your  disposal .     
 The  flip  side of this ,  is  to  make your  H   for   volume fill    and use  1 cylinder at  2200 psi  to  get  the  pressure   at  where  ever  you  need  it to be at , safely  and cheaply  

And how much for the propane to lift the same weight with hot air?

 OK    Is  this  comparing  the  entire time  the Hydrogen  stays   in  flyable   and safe condition ? 
 Or   Just  One  3 hr  flight?    
  So if your  wanting  just  a  3 hr flight  and  pack it up   Sure   Propane  is  your  best  buy  hands down,   But  the  ship is  going to be   5 times larger  unless you  build  a  hybrid  .
   If you could  have  a   Gas lift ship , get in  and go , ready  to  fly   any day   lets  say  6 months out of  the  year ,  How  much  propane  would  you  use in  comparison to   ? 
   I think  the   cost   at corporate  pricing ,  for  a 6 month , to  fly every  day  flyable,    would  be  almost  equal  between  the  2 gases . 
 

Post #5 should be a sticky, because it defines the difference between short term personal airships and long term personal airships. The short term ship will be larger and cost more to construct, but will pack up and store cheaply between flights.
  The long term ship using hydrogen or helium will be smaller and cheaper to construct, but the investment into the gas will make occasional use impractical. For a ship working all summer making money, the gas investment will pay off.
  Even a propane ship will pay off if you can fly often enough.

Maybe $20 dollars a day and a ship three times the volume

This is a quirky idea, free hydrogen from bacteria.  I read yeasterday that Cyanobacteria, a strain called Cyanothece ( insert number here) produces copious amounts of hydrogen during the night and oxygen during the day.   I doubt my speculative abilities to enable a ship to carry enough of this and the glucose water to sustain enough hydrogen in a ship to counter the daily loss through diffusion ,  however, it would be a green way to generate it at home and collect it at night for the air ship, then have pure oxygen for your house or what ever, during the day.   Truly a green way to live.   So they are now speculating on farms of square miles of this stuff, it would have to be covered and collected to run power "plants" for small cities.   Go Green!

To get enough H2 in five days to fill Dude's 6305 ft^3 ultralite airship would take 2214 liters of slime. I don't know about you but that's bigger than my bathtub.

How much do you think a  rigid dirigible  filled with  hot air will cost per trip. Perhaps $100 per excursion. You figure it out.

I need a cast iron air ship.  At the rate helium diffuses it may cost 100 dollars per day to keep it filled.  None of us have tanks large enough to store 8000 cubic feet of helium.  And the compressor to get thousands of PSI cost a bundle.   My solution to dismantling and storing a ship after each use is to have a hanger, it will cost less than tanks and compressors.   Next, to stop diffusion one need only get a very thick canvass and drape it over the ship, tie it around the bottom.  Once there is a thin layer of helium outside your ship, it will diffuse back into your ship at the same rate internal helium is trying to diffuse out of the ship, assuming there is little or no internal pressure forcing it out.

.     Second, topping off an air ship with hydrogen would do fine for a number of months or even years until an unsafe mix ratio had been reached.   I don't know about 50/50 anyone?

About 91/9 (He/H2) is flammable when mixed with air. That would be too easy... We originally hoped to use such a mixed gas, but we discovered that it didn't solve the problem. 

I also don't think double bagging it would reduce permeation unless the outer bag is a better barrier. The gas will always permeate to the lowest pressure, outside the balloon. 

inner balloon pressure > outer balloon pressure > atmospheric pressure

^---This is always true for soft balloons. 

  The mylar party balloons seem to last a really long time. I believe they have a layer of aluminum electro-deposited on the plastic. Good trick. Wouldn't it be sweet if we could find boat wrap with that same layer of aluminum? It's all about molecules, and apparently it doesn't take a very thick layer of aluminum to hold back gas, at least at low pressure.
  If the mlyar could be found, or seamed wide enough to sandwich with our boat wrap, that might make a good cheap envelope. The mylar won't shrink along with the boat wrap, so, no shrinking of that model. Everything would have to be sealed gores or put up with the wrinkles. I would have the mylar on the inside, because the boat wrap is more damage resistant, and will hold more pressure.
  Thinking about it further, the mylar must be inside, or it will blister away from the boat wrap as the gas permeates the boat wrap and is held back by the mylar.
  Another simple solution is just to have gas filled lift bags inside of a boat wrap envelope. A blower, prop wash, or engine exhaust could provide some pressure to make the envelope stay in shape for dynamic lift.
  I don't think there is any way to reduce the actual cost of day to day blimping. Gas is going to escape, somewhere along the line either the ship goes commercial, or it's an expensive toy. A flying club spreads out the cost, though.

I agree, it is going to cost either way.  Good Year uses a blend of neoprene and polyurethane and I am sure it is heavy.   If I were going to make a blend I would want 4 layers, polyurethane, a durable plastic on the outside with an aluminum coating on the inside of that, then nylon ripstop and polyethylene on the inside and the weight has to be less than one ounce per square foot.   it would have to be custom made.   I don't even know a supplier yet.  Every few years Good Year throws their outer skins away.  If only we could get some of that for a test.

.   I also agree that to operate a ship, it needs to be capable of generating a small income on a steady basis.   Such as a Taxi service.   Can you imagine having a bus sized taxi floating over the streets of new york picking up airport destined frequent flyers and jetting them over the traffic jams and stop lights, over buildings and fences and open fields straight to the airport?   You would be in demand all the time and you could pick people up with a little drop elevator, like a slide tube that lifts the person back up into the ship where they take their seats.   You would need vectoring thusters and a minimum speed of about 45 maybe 50 mile per hour.  Get to the airport, collect your fee and tell them to step into the elevator chute, lower them down with a smile on their face and pick up another customer to take to a hotel.   To deal with other jealous angry cab drivers just lower an angry rabid chihuahua on a tether.   Cost of small dog, $50.00 cost of one can of foaming whip cream $2.50  ....Look on cab drivers face....Priceless.    The design is already forming in my head.   But there are other services that air ships can provide, depending on the size.   The forestry service needs an eye in the sky all the time and they want to spy on hunters, campers and illegal timber thieves.   Aerial Photography.   Tourism.   Lost boyscout searches.   High schools and colleges....mostly just for rides in the sky.  Or experiments.
Snow patrol for ski and avalanche areas.   Advertising.   Rescue operations in places difficult for a helicopter.   You know, Helicopters are very expensive to operate and the insurance must be through the roof.   City Ambulance service...there is no luggage.   Then there is always the sports commentary from an aerial view.   Another thing, if you are promoting a ship that is in a movie, I would think you could get some backing from Paramount or who ever the ship is associated with, such as Star Trek, Star Wars,  Battlestar G, or what ever ship a person feels competant to build.   My three larger designs are based on movie ships.   The shuttle design would make a good taxi, but you cannot land it in a busy street, you have to be able to lower something down for them or have a very low hanging gondola ,  or a gondola with an elevator chute if you prefer to fly from below the craft.   can you imagine having a fleet of 15 or 20 flying taxis in New York?   No traffic jams, easy riding, no horns or yelling, no fumes.   Just the hum of freedom.   Sky Taxi, the world of tomorrow, today.

I also don't think double bagging it would reduce permeation unless the outer bag is a better barrier. The gas will always permeate to the lowest pressure, outside the balloon. 
inner balloon pressure > outer balloon pressure > atmospheric pressure
^---This is always true for soft balloons. 

-dude6935

Permeation is more a function of concentration. If you have H2 in an inner bag and N2 in the annulus, the O2 would have to pass the first barrier, and as the O2 concentration in the annulus would be small, the rate into the second barrier would be much smaller. So the double bag would be a great safety improvement.

To deal with other jealous angry cab drivers just lower an angry rabid chihuahua on a tether.   Cost of small dog, $50.00 cost of one can of foaming whip cream $2.50  ....Look on cab drivers face....Priceless.  

-inventive47

LOL:
If it's a dog eat dog world out there we might as well capitalize on it.

Seriously, I have always thought that having a series of flying hospitals would be good. As first responders to a car wreck, a lot more lives could saved if the ER came to you in minuets.

You know, Helicopters are very expensive to operate and the insurance must be through the roof. 

-inventive47

In Fort Worth Texas if "Life-Flight" is called to the scene the fee is $7000.

How much do you think a  rigid dirigible  filled with  hot air will cost per trip. Perhaps $100 per excursion. You figure it out.

-michaelcweir

But hot air is not what this thread is about. The reason for pushing Hydrogen is for a 254 lb limit ship, Hydrogen gives the best lift with the smallest envelope, which drastically cuts cost and performance penalties. Hot air requires too big a ship.

We're not trying to replicate what's already out there. We're trying to push the line into a new practicality.

I still think we can make Hydrogen safe by surrounding it with Helium

You could ,  but  why?   Once  the molecules  leave  , let  them  go    to  do  no harm.
 I believe  we  will get the best  gas  retention  by   laminating our  boat wrap   on  the inside  with   ether  Aluminum  foil , As  thin and as wide  as  we can  find    or  use  the  party  balloon  foil  Which has  a  vapor  deposited  aluminum  coating  over  a  nylon  film with  a heat  seal-able  coating  on the other side .
    The  rational here is  ,If  balloon foils  do such a good  job at  a micron  thickness, ,  then  Real  aluminum  foil  should  do   even better like 200 % better !   

Sure you can make it safe by surrounding it with He. You could also surround it with nitrogen or carbon dioxide. You could also mix it with various gases to render it inert. The issue is how much it costs in money and performance to do that.