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inventive47
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Re: Common Production Shell

#80, by inventive47, 11 January 2011 05:51 AM

Good illustration.  This is why we don't have a viable production electric car.   The hoop idea will work with an ellipse, the hoop can match the shape very closely and be fine tuned with Navs' center brace and radial spoke suggestion, just as you can tighten wires to adjust a bicycle  to become more round you can also use the same method to stabilize an egg shape or what ever shape you want for a lifting body.  
.   I believe you can get by with about 4 large inner bags of about 3 mill, but like the outer shell, they will have to be custom made with a hot iron to be air tight, wedge shaped and a little over sized to fill out the ship well.  You want the same initial square footage, top and bottom and then seam in the two side panels to accommodate the height of the envelope, say 8 or ten feet.  It will be almost double your square area at 1/2 to 1/3 the weight per square foot, so that comes to an even amount of about 60 lbs or 2/3 if the outer shell is 90 lbs.   After doing the whole weight budget if you have to fudge something it can be the outer shell from 9 mil down to 6 mill and save 30 lbs.  The while plastic I am using is about 5.5 mil, I measured it on a digital micrometer / caliper and that's what it said and it weighs 13 grams per square foot, a little less than 1/2 ounce and for the top and bottom of your ship at 44 feet in diameter I get about 95 lbs.  So I would dig a little more into the weight of this per square foot.   It would be great if I was wrong about this for then many of my measurements would come down.  I believe 28.34 grams equals one ounce .

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dude6935
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Re: Common Production Shell

#81, by dude6935, 11 January 2011 03:30 PM


LOL, good point swampie.
The hoop, the spokes, and the internal gas cells are all modifications to the CPS. They need not be included in the basic design. It makes sense to put in the hoop pocket because it is 10 times easier to add it in production than to add it by modification.

IMO, the basic gondola should attach to the envelope with a few lines attached to the bag with load patches. It is simple and proven. A swiveling gondola attachment would be an optional addition.

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Re: Common Production Shell

#82, by inventive47, 11 January 2011 10:25 PM

Attachment patches are a good idea, however you must have a lot of them to hold your weight.  You can go as far out as the hoop, however it occured to me when you do this it will press the line into the curve of the outer envelope,  perhaps it will work from the hoop if you have line of sight from the hoop the the bottom of the gondola.

.  Nav's suggestion of using the center vertical  brace as an attachment point will spread the weight evenly around the ship, but I would want about a 4 inch pipe to attach to, not the 2 inch I first imagined.

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navigaiter
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Re: Common Production Shell

#83, by navigaiter, 12 January 2011 12:12 AM

This is the beginning of a "Cee" shape lifting body design. It's 8' Long and 10' Wide,  I've just got one half finished, I used photo editing to put the top on.

I will add an internal "mast" inside the thickest part of the airfoil. The gondola and landing tire will hang on the mast bottom.

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Re: Common Production Shell

#84, by navigaiter, 12 January 2011 12:30 AM

This image shows how the envelope hangs in an airfoil shape inside the Cee frame. Dee frame is also correct description.  This model will receive a mast with Dyneema rope "spokes" to stabilize the frame's shape aloft.

I modeled the circular lenticular shape but it was bendier than this Dee form and not as pretty. The square stern is great for mounting elevons if desired. The stern is so wide that elevons at the ends would bank the ship.

I may add inverted Vee rudders at the stern corners if it seems helpful. I've a design to make them long with caster wheels at the bottom to stabilize this one person dirigible when on the ground.

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inventive47
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Re: Common Production Shell

#85, by inventive47, 12 January 2011 03:01 AM

Good job, Navigaitor.  I had a couple of thoughts about getting your center mast in there.  Before it is inflated you will not have the height.  If you make a sliding collar on the pipe, such as a modified shower drain fitting that can incorporate O-rings, then you could mount your top cords to the top of the mast or better yet, to a fitting that then can cap the top of the mast which is anchored to the center of top  envelope,  and the bottom cords to the sliding fitting.  The bottom fitting can be adhered directly to the bottom envelop.   The mast can go in last before it is inflated.  Push it through the pipe fitting with the O-rings and up into the top cap.  as you spread the distance between the top cap and the lower flanged fitting the ropes will tighten like when you open an umbrella.   Then lock the sliding fitting with a pin or something through the mast.   It may be advisable to plug the mast just above the pin hole.   It also occured to me that this will not work with an external hoop but only an internal hoop.  As the envelope expand vertically from the gas it will tighten around the hoop
.   
.   The flat nylon binding straps that they tie down lumber with on trucks and trailers might be used to go through the seam and be welded into the seam.  For an external hoop design.

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navigaiter
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Re: Common Production Shell

#86, by navigaiter, 13 January 2011 12:06 AM

WHAT IS the CPS topic?


Dude suggests;   [[[ The hoop, the spokes, and the internal gas cells are all modifications to the CPS.]]]

Ok, now I get it....   The CPS is intended to be nothing more than a personal lift bag like the mylar party balloons and we may devise  Cheep! ways to make one???

Presumably it can be left as a blimpy bag without a solid frame???

In other topics, we develop options to customize the Basic CPS Lift Bag.???  Add a lawn chair or a dirigible frame of our preference?

If I'm right then this topic might be better named CLB, Common LIft Bag.

   Getting the basic, common, lifting element designed and built first has a lot of merit. It will be a plain statement of what the group actually plans to build AS a group. We will discuss anything LTA for fun but for getting things done, we need to have a simple definite type of UltraLight ship which we would like to design and build as a community.

   I agree, the quasi-lenticular gas bag is the way to go for a new look in airships and for new ultralight capabilities in personal airships.

Flight is right.

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dude6935
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Re: Common Production Shell

#87, by dude6935, 13 January 2011 03:37 AM

Indeed, I had planned on Project 2.0 to be about a bare-bones airship kit. To me that means an envelope attached to a gondola. All you need to add to this is the engine and its controls and it will fly. All the other modifications go on top of the basic kit. If "CPS" is a poor description of this, we can rename the kit. 

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navigaiter
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Re: Common Production Shell

#88, by navigaiter, 13 January 2011 08:05 PM

[[Indeed, I had planned on Project 2.0 to be about a bare-bones airship kit. To me that means an envelope attached to a gondola.]] says dude

Yep, i agree, couldn't be simpler or EZier,  just a means to get off the ground on a calm day. I'm seeing an ellipsoidal, [ puffy lenticular ],  bag like a huge mylar party  balloon with a pilot harnessed to the envelope.

surprise  scary at first but it works as a simple square one device. this could be the break-through that gets this project moving.

This basic bag can float a human. It is meant to be powered  but technically does NOT need a motor to fly since it can be led around by a friend, [or a big dog?],  pulling a rope tether. It's not far out to imagine it replacing those silly, goofy, paragliders that cost $2500 average. Later on, a powered smallblimp would wipe out the ludicrous PPG industry where you run with whirling blades strapped to your back. now that's really scary.

  We need somebody to make the first minimalist model with 6 mil PE plastic film. Preferably using the prototype-intended shrink wrap but plain old PE plastic painters' drop "cloth" from Ace Hdwr will do for the first full-sized model.

how hard is it?

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inventing_man
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Re: Common Production Shell

#89, by inventing_man, 13 January 2011 11:38 PM

 Nav 
  Powered paragliders  are here to  stay .   There is  just  no way  personal airships  can  compete  with  the  simplicity  and  Fly- ability of  PPG's .  It  is  the  "holy grail"  of personal  aircraft hands down. 
 Having   taken  training   for   basic PG  wing  management  , I can  state   for absolute  certain  it  is  the closest  to  feeling   what  a bird  feels   when  flying  , a human  will ever get . You  Do  feel AND control  the  wind  in your  wings .  Its incredibly   Awesome!   I  just wish  you  all  would get  to  experience it  some day .  

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dude6935
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Re: Common Production Shell

#90, by dude6935, 14 January 2011 12:02 AM

I agree Nav, we need a good model, and the sooner the better. I am not a very apt experimenter. I wish I were. In the mean time, I will ask around to see if I can get one of my handy friends to help me. If I have such help, I would be more confident in trying to construct a large model. But if anyone else wants to take it on, I can help finance the effort.

Assuming a model is successful, I would like to have a conference/build event at some point. Maybe the first weekend of spring in a couple of months (maybe later). We could build a few envelopes and test out a few builds. By that time, I would probably be able to swing the construction costs for a functioning ship.

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inventing_man
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Re: Common Production Shell

#91, by inventing_man, 14 January 2011 12:58 AM

I've  asked for  some  scraps  of the  boat wrap  from  Pro Tect  6 mill .  To  try different  heat  sealing methods on .  I also  have  several  boat dealers around  but all  their  wraps  are pre made to  fit boats  and  for sale at 50  bucks  each.  The  scrap  stuff  has already been   pre shrank,  We need  virgin  wrap.  
 Also  the  rotary  hand sealer  out fit  offered to   try  some  samples  on  their  sealer for nothing     , just  send the  film  you  want  sealed .  
   I'm  gonna  go out on a  limb  and  say   before  we  get  all  happy   here  . If the  boat  wrap  wont work    Where does the project stand ?  What  would  we use instead  that is  this  heavy duty  (236 psi  burst  strength )  durable , single sheet  wide enough,  and this cheap? 
  So  to put this project in  perspective  Job one is  getting it to  seam . All hands on  board with  this ?  
Otherwise  we're back to square one.

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inventing_man
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Re: Common Production Shell

#92, by inventing_man, 14 January 2011 03:34 AM

My  second question is  does anyone have  any  UV  resistance data on this film?  Or could  we  UV protect it some how   like with  Armor All  or  some sort of paint like  Krylon  plastic paint? 
 If  the UV rating is low like  One year or less ,  would it  be worth it ?  and how  could we  extend it ? A simple  quality UV  resistant  wax  even?

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navigaiter
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Re: Common Production Shell

#93, by navigaiter, 14 January 2011 04:00 AM

I-Man asks  [[ If the  boat  wrap  wont work    Where does the project stand ?  What  would  we use instead  that is  this  heavy duty  (236 psi  burst  strength )  durable , single sheet  wide enough,  and this cheap? ]]

 We can play with straight PE film dropcloth in higher mils, 3 to 9.  9 is too heavy for genral use but could be glued into wear spots of the envelope.
  Then there's PU film which is stronger and tougher but doesn't cost as much as the fancy nylon fabrics.
  We may not actually require a 40 foot wide sheet, it's just EZier and faster to build and might be a touch safer than having  extra seams into the main surfaces. But on the other hand, we may be able to make seams that are stronger than the plastic! I can see 3M 90 glued seams a foot wide that'll never fail.?

   We can play with methods to keep the plastic from flapping and wearing. The point is to avoid the unaffordable fabrics that balloons and blimps use. Our plastic wraps are so cheap and quick to make that we can recycle them when the UV starts getting to them.

  Airship fabric is a show-stopper.

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dude6935
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Re: Common Production Shell

#94, by dude6935, 14 January 2011 04:44 AM

I have confidence the shrink wrap will be passable. If it isn't, that will be a setback. It is essentially PE with an additive. Now different manufacturers may use different plastics, so we need to check on that if we hit a roadblock. 

Boats are left outside with this film on them for months. I would think this means they hold up reasonably well under UV. 

PU is probably the best plan B. 

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mikek
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Re: Common Production Shell

#95, by mikek, 14 January 2011 05:57 AM

I haven't gotten to the boat yard yet to see if they have any shrink wrap. Even if the shrink wrap doesn't heat weld properly, we can glue the seam with a gas tight glue, and then use a mechanical clamping to hold the plastic together. Since we are considering a split pipe perimeter ring, and a sewn in cord, a proper seal may present itself in the design. The glue keeps the gas in, and the clamp keeps the seam together.
An expendable envelope that is easy to assemble and seal is just what we are talking about. We are looking at fairly fixed costs for motors, props, generators, and avionics. We can use ready-made trikes or such, or make our own. Keeping envelope costs down is good business.
And talk about glue, have you guys ever used 5200? It's like super silicone.

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inventive47
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Re: Common Production Shell

#96, by inventive47, 14 January 2011 07:37 AM

There are UV resistant sprays in a can you can get.  I can ask my brother where he got his for Marine Vinyl.   My concern about the slotted pipe is joining it to the larger structure pipe.   Ideally I want to use very small 3/8 ths inch long aluminum wood screws and I don't know that they even exist.   Has anyone ever seen an aluminum screw, especially a small pointed Phillips.
     
      Secondly, those small screws could pull out over time and vibration and stress, I was considering PVC glue to bond the joint of the two pipes, but now that Super silicone 5200 has been mentioned I think it might be better at contending with the stress, flexing and vibrating and would make a thicker, broader glue joint.  Thanks Mike

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navigaiter
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Re: Common Production Shell

#97, by navigaiter, 14 January 2011 05:26 PM

Here is a design that may work as "square one" for us getting started on a smallblimp. It is intended to be a discussion-starter so we can nail down the first design and get moving on construction.

   The lift bag is in the style of a mylar party balloon, a proven construction technique -- to say the least. Take two circles and glue/weld em together.

   The next challenge is to suspend a 200 pound payload from a 3-to-6 mil plastic film bubble. Help me think here. Fiberglass disks might work. Traditional load tapes and patch points require a lot of  envelope tension/pressure/strength which is not affordable.

   The load spreader disks also mash down the top and restrain the bottom so the shape is retained somewhat more lenticular than spherical.

   The power plant is absent, it is a custom option for whoever wants to build one of these miniblimps. He/she may install whatever they like to work with the most. That way there's less gabbing which is often just an excuse for not starting to construct something which could be hazardous to, or terminate, one's health.   Fun things are like that.
wink

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dude6935
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Re: Common Production Shell

#98, by dude6935, 14 January 2011 11:38 PM

I like the load patch approach. There are fewer envelope punctures, and it would probably be lighter. 
This begs the question, can we get enough agreement to include more than an envelope in a common kit? I have been surprised at how much agreement we have had on the envelope design. I am afraid that level of agreement will be hard to get on structural design. But, hopefully I am wrong.

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inventing_man
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Re: Common Production Shell

#99, by inventing_man, 14 January 2011 11:51 PM

Here is  a simple solution  to  the  Split pipe  to  main frame  connection .  It  offers  triple redundancy .
 It  uses 6061 T6  1 inch X 1/8 inch  thick   straps  formed  to  the tubings  , uses  Aluminum  bolts ,  and  can  be   as many  as you  think  you  need .  It  also  uses  the  5200 Super  Silicon  mentioned   by  Mikek  In  the  clamp  area  . What I;m  thinking  here  is  to  glue  the  seam  area  while  working  the  split pipe  over  the  fresh  glue  between  the  envelope half's.  as a full length  clamp  ,  then  let it cure  that  way.  After  it  cures   when  you  put the  straps  on  with  the   bolt    you  also  clamp  the  glue joint  even  tighter,  compressing  the  silicon  making  it  also  a  gasket .  The  small  aluminum bolts   can be  in split PVC   areas   by  them selves to  aid  in  the  clamping   force  . With  the rope  bead  outside the   bolts  the  envelope  cant pull out.
  It  may  be  wise  to  locate and  grommet  the  through  bolt  holes  in  the  envelope too.    
 Pic at  bottom is  how i would  glue it  all togather

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