Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
The guy who runs/is "JPaerospace" is an old guy who worked on the original "inflatable T" that was concieved as a reentry and decent apparatus for the Mercury/Gemini spacecraft and he is fixated on it as the solution to everything regardless of whether there are better ideas or not.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
I think a few of the advantages are:
2) 50' tubes (easy construction) can be made to fit into one trailer (storage). Roughly based to fit in a 8'6" wide x 13'6" tall x 52' trailer.
Approx 40 cubic meters per tube x 2 tubes gives about 176 pounds of lift less the envelope weight.
Got to go, finish this later.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Beyond ease of construction, it has no real advantages over a solid delta, "pumpkin seed", or lenticular airfoil. Or even a traditional teardrop either. You waste alot of extra surface area with the "swept V". Plus, at our scale (ultralight), it needs extra structure to bridge the gap between the V's because the CoL for the gondola's position is not at the nose where it would be convenient. For the same lift it probably has to be twice as large. There is no free lunch.
The shape has some advantages for high altitude supersonic stability, which is why JP is pursuing it. But its not a very efficient shape for this application (low and slow).
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
I'd say that storage inside of a semi trailer without removal of helium is in itself reason enough to take a look at this design.
The nose of the V is hingable. The extra structure could be a aerotubes to keep the weight incheck.
Depending on the persons weight, may be able to increase or decrease delta angle to accomodate the extra poundage?
I'd probably say the motor (w/ nice ducted prop) would be at the apex of the V , as well as the horizontal/vertical airflow deflectors tucked in right behind it, as it is just fabric behind and not a gasbag.
<< Double up the envelope (tubes)... (though two trailers) and you could probably strap some solar cells to the unit or make it EQ flyer instead.
If you want to get really crazy, can add a top and bottom cover and use the area for additional hot air lift, but maybe its adding to much at this stage.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
File:Barry Palmer.jpg
[edit] Summary
Author: Barry Palmer (1961) this is possibly the predecessor of the earliest example of a modern hang glider. It is one of 7 or 8 gliders built by engineer Barry Palmer. The first, which was built of salvaged aluminium tubing, polyethylene sheeting and drafting tape, had an out of pocket expense of $10.89. The spars and keel were 22 feet in length, so launches of the 40 lb aircraft could be accomplished easily even in no wind. Flights got up to 600 feet in length and as high as 80 feet. The last of the series flew in the summer of 1962, and had a swinging seat, which expanded the flying capability and control well beyond the "true hang" armpit supports. The triangle control frame begun in 1891 for hang gliders, at least, was incorporated in at least one of the photographed hang gliders by Barry Hill Palmer.
(Thought Nav might like the price tag on the above Delta), I do.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Owning and operating a semi-tractor trailer is a *bit* beyond the means of the target audience of this project.
Even within an enclosed trailer, your gas bags are going to leak-out and go limp in storage. Invalidating the whole point/advantage you mentioned.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Yah, I have almost given up on trailering because I can't see anything smaller than a tractor trailer working. The volume just isn't there when you have to conform to the allowable width and height of roads.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Yep. The volumn and the fact that you can't store lift gas in the envelope long term makes flight configuration storage impractical.
And really, one of the potential advantages of an ultralight non-to-semi rigid airship is that it should be able to deflate and fold/roll the bag up like a tent and carried home in the back of the average truck or large passenger vehicle (SUV or mini-van). I think we should play to that because it will make the final product much more attractive to largest group of customers.
As cool as funky shaped machines are, I think we need to be as pragmatic and realistic as possible. I don't know if Boldt was just sharing this design or proposing it as "The" common airship kit configuration. I guess I should have asked before I laid in on it...
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
I think the Common production Shell concept has solidified the design , But being the "thinkers" we all seem to be here, other ideas Should be welcomed and allowed to flourish here . Who Knows what Could become of it . As long as we stay on topic for the thread s , and keep the CPS information separate , Life is good .
I like it . What if it were sized to gas lift 50% of the total AUW and airfoil lift the remaining weight ?
Relieving the size demands into something that can be conventionally trailered by pickup truck ?
Just thoughts here .
Most of today's hang gliders are named by their size . Like A Willis Wing Falcon 225 Tandem .
It has 225 sq ft of wing area and can support and fly up to a 500 pound hook in payload . It can fly a lot more weight but this is its rated max flight weight . Its straps onto a ladder rack for transport. So in that size confines and wing span area How much lift gas in "normal" size tubes could you get ? .
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
I have a design, that, in theory would solve your problem of storing and trailering. The largest trailer that you have mentioned is around 5,000 cubic feet, maybe a little less, cause you gave us the outside dimensions. Our single man air ship is around 8,000 cubic feet and we need to shrink it down to about 4,000 cubic feet to store it. but we cannot use an outside tank, for it would have to be huge. My solution, if feasable, is to make a high pressure inner lift bag, that can accomodate about 30 psi safely. Let us say that the center bag inside a small ship is 8 feet in diameter and 40 feet long, ( as an example) and the other bags were irregular to fit around it. This volume would be a little over 2,000 cubic feet, and when pressurized to 15 psi from the gas from the other two bags it would contain 4,000 cubic feet, changing the ship in volume from 8 to 6 thousand cubic feet . Add another 15 psi to total 30 psi in the pressure bag and the ship's overall volume would be 4,000 cubic feet by 40 some odd feet long and you might have room for the gondola if it is not too boxy rigid.
. It is not difficult to compress to 30 psi and quickly, using the rotary designs such as a supercharger uses. The compressor would be completely inside the ship during compression, set just inside the airlock, I expect. It could use a 5 hp brushless dc motor for RC airplanes running off a car battery.
. The bag, has to be high tensile strength, with special seems and sealant. In theory, this could shrink a ship small enough to trailer it for long distance travel, cross country. At 30 psi it is not a danger to explode, if a leak or tear results it will leak out and re inflate the ship on the spot, yes, even in the trailer. A smaller diameter bag will accommodate more pressure, but less volume.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Only 2 problems I dont have a hazmat licence to transport hydrogen ( wont be allowed except in DOT approved tanks and DOT rated tank racks anyway) ( you might get away with helium transported like this..maybe ) , and I dont have a tractor trailer rig handy
Heat , I'm sorry to say this but it's going to be the heat generated compressing LTA gases thats going to destroy your pump in short order . OR its going to take a long time measured in days to allow for cool off time between cycles , even at compressing to 30 psi . You may get 5 min of run time to every 15 to 30 min of cool down time . Thats why helium compressors are so expensive specalized pieces of equipment that could do this job in 2 hours , in tanks that you could cary in your pick up truck.
guest
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Isn't that the point? You want to reduce your buoyancy/volume either for storage, to "sink", or just to trim lift.
@ Inventing_man: I think you are making more of the heat problem than it really is. Helium compressors are so expensive because they are "specalized". But it doesn't mean there is anything particularly special about them. The same way that aviation GPS are physically identical to terrestrial ones, but cost several times more. There are DIY ways around it. For instance, you can swipe an automotive turbo system and intercooler and modify it to be driven by an electric motor, or build a cooling jacket around (or simply immerse) a pump and the high pressures line in chilled cooling water and problem solved.
As I see it, you do not have a choice but to HAVE to have compression system with which to recover your lift gas. An envelope is not a long term storage medium and it is cost prohibitive to accept that loss or to waste it each time you pack the ship down. You need to look past the euphoria of that first assembly and flight to the mundane of normal flight operations and handling.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
[[As I see it, you do not have a choice but to HAVE to have compression system with which to recover your lift gas. An envelope is not a long term storage medium and it is cost prohibitive to accept that loss or to waste it each time you pack the ship down. ]]
Won't work for what we're tyin to do here, make blimp flying affordable. Neither will the use of helium lift gas which is so expensive you have to keep it forever if u're not a millionaire.
Practical answer is to make H2 DIY with ur own electrolyzer. When it gets diluted after some months inside the lift bags, release it, recycle the lift bags, replace them and refill them. Disposable bags, disposable lift gas. Cost u a thousand buks a year? sure beats He use.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
People aren't going to buy a disposable airship.
Most people aren't going to be able to "park" an inflated airship, even a small one, for long periods of time.
People aren't going to accept a thousand dollar electric bill to fill their liftbag everytime they want to go fly.
People aren't going to be able to have an envelope slowly filling over several days in their backyard or launch point.
H2, He2, NH3, or whatever, we're going to need a better answer than that. The idea of a compressor and tankage is that you *can* keep and reuse your lift gas effectively forever.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
James said " people aren't going to want a disposable airship & The idea of a compressor and tankage is that you *can* keep and reuse your lift gas effectively forever."
Everything exposed to UV has a useful life . Paraglider wings and Hot Air balloons for instance have about a 500 hour UV exposure time before they wind up in the trash can , or become boat covers . They are considered expendable items . I'm sure the Big boys in airshipping have a exposure limit as well before the envelope is toast . We will be no different. However if it takes 5 - 10 years to reach that limit. then the goal is met . Use once and throw away it is not , as the word "disposable" seems to infer
Partly true, except you now need a helium scrubber too, that keeps the gas pure along with a suitable compressor system that can do the job at rated DOT approved tank pressure in a short time frame .
Now the Big boys have the deal . The gas supplier comes out with a Semi rig, Hooks up to the envelope and scrubs their gas for them at their location , and replaces what was lost . Or in the case of complete deflation for envelope exchange / maint , the gas supplier reclaims the gas for recycle .
This is for helium . There is no such protocol for Hydrogen gas cleaning or reclamation. It is Dumped into the air , and start over fresh.
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Nav said after some months. I doubt that is acceptable. 5 years? yeah maybe, like sails or hang-glider fabric. Especially if its fairly low cost (>$500) But we should be careful not to use the term "disposable"...
Our model isn't the Big Boys, its the amateur ultralight/hang glider enthusiast or maybe the day sailor. The ship isn't going to spend its life fully inflated and flying around most of the year around earning $$ for its owner and live in a nice big blimp hanger. Its going to get taken out of storage maybe a couple dozen times a year, set up, inflated, and flown around for a weekend at a time.
Its not that difficult to scrub/purify lift gas. Running it thru a dessicant pack should suffice. What I am picturing is that this is a hobbiest toy, where the gas spends most of its time living in a pressure cylinder with an occasional day or two in the envelope before getting pumped back into the cylinder. Not that much time to bleed out or get contaminated with air or N2.
Generating ~8000 cuft. of H2 by electrolysis or any other means isn't going to be cheap if you are doing it each time you prep for flight.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
We've defiantly had some thread creep here, this should be in storage http://smallblimps.lefora.com/2010/07/08/airship-storage/page2/#post24
or in ground equipment.
http://smallblimps.lefora.com/2011/03/28/ground-handling-equipment-kit/#post0
We need to run the numbers on balloon super pressure storage to see if it is a possibility.
Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?
Agreed 100% Thread creep
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