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Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

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boldt
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Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#0, by boldt, 28 March 2011 06:43 AM

Using this configuration with a delta hanglider to make it a hybrid?

Could power up and then sink back down?

 



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jamesg
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#1, by jamesg, 28 March 2011 12:18 PM

The guy who runs/is "JPaerospace" is an old guy who worked on the original "inflatable T" that was concieved as a reentry and decent apparatus for the Mercury/Gemini spacecraft and he is fixated on it as the solution to everything regardless of whether there are better ideas or not.

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boldt
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#2, by boldt, 28 March 2011 01:57 PM

I think a few of the advantages are:

2) 50' tubes (easy construction) can be made to fit into one trailer (storage).  Roughly based to fit in a 8'6" wide x 13'6" tall x 52' trailer.

Approx 40 cubic meters per tube x 2 tubes gives about 176 pounds of lift less the envelope weight.

Got to go, finish this later.


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jamesg
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#3, by jamesg, 28 March 2011 03:04 PM

Beyond ease of construction, it has no real advantages over a solid delta, "pumpkin seed", or lenticular airfoil. Or even a traditional teardrop either.  You waste alot of extra surface area with the "swept V". Plus, at our scale (ultralight), it needs extra structure to bridge the gap between the V's because the CoL for the gondola's position is not at the nose where it would be convenient. For the same lift it probably has to be twice as large.  There is no free lunch.

The shape has some advantages for high altitude supersonic stability, which is why JP is pursuing it. But its not a very efficient shape for this application (low and slow).

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boldt
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#4, by boldt, 28 March 2011 05:40 PM

I'd say that storage inside of a semi trailer without removal of helium is in itself reason enough to take a look at this design.

The nose of the V is hingable.  The extra structure could be a aerotubes to keep the weight incheck.

Depending on the persons weight, may be able to increase or decrease delta angle to accomodate the extra poundage?

I'd probably say the motor (w/ nice ducted prop) would be at the apex of the V , as well as the horizontal/vertical airflow deflectors tucked in right behind it, as it is just fabric behind and not a gasbag. 

<< Double up the envelope (tubes)... (though two trailers) and you could probably strap some solar cells to the unit or make it EQ flyer instead.

If you want to get really crazy, can add a top and bottom cover and use the area for additional hot air lift, but maybe its adding to much at this stage.


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boldt
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#5, by boldt, 28 March 2011 05:46 PM

File:Barry Palmer.jpg

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[edit] Summary

Author: Barry Palmer (1961) this is possibly the predecessor of the earliest example of a modern hang glider. It is one of 7 or 8 gliders built by engineer Barry Palmer. The first, which was built of salvaged aluminium tubing, polyethylene sheeting and drafting tape, had an out of pocket expense of $10.89. The spars and keel were 22 feet in length, so launches of the 40 lb aircraft could be accomplished easily even in no wind. Flights got up to 600 feet in length and as high as 80 feet. The last of the series flew in the summer of 1962, and had a swinging seat, which expanded the flying capability and control well beyond the "true hang" armpit supports. The triangle control frame begun in 1891 for hang gliders, at least, was incorporated in at least one of the photographed hang gliders by Barry Hill Palmer.


(Thought Nav might like the price tag on the above Delta),  I do.

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jamesg
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#6, by jamesg, 28 March 2011 06:36 PM

Owning and operating a semi-tractor trailer is a *bit* beyond the means of the target audience of this project.

Even within an enclosed trailer, your gas bags are going to leak-out and go limp in storage. Invalidating the whole point/advantage you mentioned.

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dude6935
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#7, by dude6935, 28 March 2011 06:54 PM

Yah, I have almost given up on trailering because I can't see anything smaller than a tractor trailer working. The volume just isn't there when you have to conform to the allowable width and height of roads.

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jamesg
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#8, by jamesg, 28 March 2011 07:16 PM

Yep. The volumn and the fact that you can't store lift gas in the envelope long term makes flight configuration storage impractical.

And really, one of the potential advantages of an ultralight non-to-semi rigid airship is that it should be able to deflate and fold/roll the bag up like a tent and carried home in the back of the average truck or large passenger vehicle (SUV or mini-van).  I think we should play to that because it will make the final product much more attractive to largest group of customers.

As cool as funky shaped machines are, I think we need to be as pragmatic and realistic as possible.  I don't know if Boldt was just sharing this design or proposing it as "The" common airship kit configuration.  I guess I should have asked before I laid in on it...

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inventing_man
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#9, by inventing_man, 28 March 2011 07:19 PM

 I  think  the  Common production  Shell  concept   has  solidified  the   design   ,   But  being  the   "thinkers"  we  all seem to be here, other ideas   Should be welcomed and  allowed to  flourish  here .  Who  Knows   what   Could  become of it .  As long  as  we  stay on  topic for  the  thread s , and keep  the  CPS   information   separate  ,  Life is good .
I like it .  What if  it  were sized  to gas  lift  50% of  the  total AUW  and  airfoil lift  the  remaining  weight ? 
 Relieving  the  size  demands   into  something   that  can   be  conventionally  trailered  by  pickup  truck ? 
  Just   thoughts here .    
  Most of today's hang gliders  are  named   by  their  size . Like  A  Willis Wing  Falcon  225   Tandem .
 It has  225 sq ft of  wing  area  and  can  support  and  fly    up to a 500 pound  hook in payload  .  It  can  fly a lot  more  weight   but  this is  its  rated max  flight weight .   Its  straps  onto  a  ladder rack   for transport.   So  in  that  size  confines  and  wing  span area  How  much  lift gas   in "normal" size   tubes  could you  get ?  . 
 


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inventive47
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#10, by inventive47, 29 March 2011 02:59 AM

I have a design, that, in theory would solve your problem of storing and trailering.   The largest trailer that you have mentioned is around 5,000 cubic feet, maybe a little less, cause you gave us the outside dimensions.   Our single man air ship is around 8,000 cubic feet and we need to shrink it down to about 4,000 cubic feet to store it.  but we cannot use an outside tank, for it would have to be huge.   My solution, if feasable, is to make a high pressure inner lift bag, that can accomodate about 30 psi safely.   Let us say that the center bag inside a small ship is 8 feet in diameter and 40 feet long, ( as an example) and the other bags were irregular to fit around it.  This volume would be a little over 2,000 cubic feet, and when pressurized to 15 psi from the gas from the other two bags it would contain 4,000 cubic feet, changing the ship in volume from 8 to 6 thousand cubic feet .   Add another 15 psi to total 30 psi in the pressure bag and the ship's overall volume would be 4,000 cubic feet by 40 some odd feet long and you might have room for the gondola if it is not too boxy rigid.
.     It is not difficult to compress to 30 psi and quickly, using the rotary designs such as a supercharger uses.  The compressor would be completely inside the ship during compression, set just inside the airlock, I expect.  It could use a 5 hp brushless dc motor for RC airplanes running off a car battery.
.   The bag, has to be high tensile strength, with special seems and sealant.   In theory, this could shrink a ship small enough to trailer it for long distance travel, cross country.   At 30 psi it is not a danger to explode, if a leak or tear results it will leak out and re inflate the ship on the spot, yes, even in the trailer.   A smaller diameter bag will accommodate more pressure, but less volume.

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inventing_man
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#11, by inventing_man, 29 March 2011 03:38 AM

Only  2 problems   I dont have  a   hazmat   licence  to  transport   hydrogen (  wont  be  allowed   except in DOT approved tanks and  DOT  rated   tank  racks  anyway) ( you  might get  away  with  helium  transported like  this..maybe )      , and  I dont have  a  tractor trailer rig handy  
 Heat ,   I'm sorry to  say   this    but it's  going to be the  heat generated   compressing   LTA gases  thats  going  to  destroy  your  pump in  short order .  OR  its  going to take  a long  time  measured in  days  to  allow  for  cool off time between cycles , even  at  compressing to  30 psi .  You  may get  5 min of run time  to  every  15 to  30 min  of  cool down time  .  Thats  why  helium compressors  are so   expensive specalized  pieces of  equipment that could  do  this job  in  2 hours ,  in tanks   that  you could cary   in your pick up truck. 

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guest
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#12, by guest, 29 March 2011 03:42 AM
If you double the pressure, you're doubling the density, which kills off your buoyancy. Reducing the volume kills off your displacement. Both of these mean you are not going to lift enough to get the job done. Who cares if it fits in a trailer if it wont work?
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jamesg
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#13, by jamesg, 29 March 2011 12:41 PM

Isn't that the point?  You want to reduce your buoyancy/volume either for storage, to "sink", or just to trim lift.

@ Inventing_man: I think you are making more of the heat problem than it really is.  Helium compressors are so expensive because they are "specalized". But it doesn't mean there is anything particularly special about them. The same way that aviation GPS are physically identical to terrestrial ones, but cost several times more.  There are DIY ways around it.  For instance, you can swipe an automotive turbo system and intercooler and modify it to be driven by an electric motor, or build a cooling jacket around (or simply immerse) a pump and the high pressures line in chilled cooling water and problem solved.

As I see it, you do not have a choice but to HAVE to have compression system with which to recover your lift gas. An envelope is not a long term storage medium and it is cost prohibitive to accept that loss or to waste it each time you pack the ship down.  You need to look past the euphoria of that first assembly and flight to the mundane of normal flight operations and handling.

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navigaiter
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#14, by navigaiter, 29 March 2011 01:05 PM

[[As I see it, you do not have a choice but to HAVE to have compression system with which to recover your lift gas. An envelope is not a long term storage medium and it is cost prohibitive to accept that loss or to waste it each time you pack the ship down. ]]

   Won't work for what we're tyin to do here, make blimp flying affordable.  Neither will the use of helium lift gas which is so expensive you have to keep it forever if u're not a millionaire.
   Practical answer is to make H2 DIY with ur own electrolyzer. When it gets diluted after some months inside the lift bags, release it, recycle the lift bags, replace them and refill them. Disposable bags, disposable lift gas.  Cost u a thousand buks a year? sure beats He use.

-~~~~~=<(The*Nav)>=~~~~~-
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jamesg
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#15, by jamesg, 29 March 2011 01:55 PM

People aren't going to buy a disposable airship.
Most people aren't going to be able to "park" an inflated airship, even a small one, for long periods of time.
People aren't going to accept a thousand dollar electric bill to fill their liftbag everytime they want to go fly.
People aren't going to be able to have an envelope slowly filling over several days in their backyard or launch point.

H2, He2, NH3, or whatever, we're going to need a better answer than that. The idea of a compressor and tankage is that you *can* keep and reuse your lift gas effectively forever.

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inventing_man
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#16, by inventing_man, 29 March 2011 04:49 PM

 James said "   people  aren't   going to  want a  disposable airship   &  The idea of a compressor and tankage is that you *can* keep and reuse your lift gas effectively forever." 

 Everything exposed to UV    has a useful life  . Paraglider wings and Hot Air balloons for instance   have about  a  500  hour UV exposure time  before  they   wind up  in  the  trash can ,  or  become  boat covers .  They  are considered expendable  items . I'm  sure  the  Big boys in airshipping   have a exposure limit  as well before the  envelope is  toast .  We  will be no  different.  However  if it  takes  5  - 10 years to   reach  that limit.  then  the goal  is met . Use once  and throw away   it is  not , as the  word  "disposable"  seems to  infer 

 Partly  true,  except   you now need  a helium scrubber  too,  that  keeps  the  gas pure along with  a suitable compressor system   that  can   do  the job at  rated DOT approved tank  pressure   in  a  short time  frame . 
  Now  the  Big  boys   have  the   deal  .  The  gas supplier  comes out  with  a  Semi rig,  Hooks up  to  the envelope  and  scrubs  their  gas   for  them at  their location , and  replaces  what  was lost .   Or  in  the  case of  complete deflation for envelope  exchange / maint  ,   the gas  supplier  reclaims the  gas  for  recycle . 
 This  is  for  helium .  There is no  such protocol for  Hydrogen  gas  cleaning  or  reclamation.  It is  Dumped into the  air , and  start over  fresh.
    .
 


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jamesg
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#17, by jamesg, 29 March 2011 06:21 PM

Nav said after some months.  I doubt that is acceptable.  5 years? yeah maybe, like sails or hang-glider fabric. Especially if its fairly low cost (>$500)  But we should be careful not to use the term "disposable"...

Our model isn't the Big Boys, its the amateur ultralight/hang glider enthusiast or maybe the day sailor. The ship isn't going to spend its life fully inflated and flying around most of the year around earning $$ for its owner and live in a nice big blimp hanger.  Its going to get taken out of storage maybe a couple dozen times a year, set up, inflated, and flown around for a weekend at a time.

Its not that difficult to scrub/purify lift gas. Running it thru a dessicant pack should suffice. What I am picturing is that this is a hobbiest toy, where the gas spends most of its time living in a pressure cylinder  with an occasional day or two in the envelope before getting pumped back into the cylinder.  Not that much time to bleed out or get contaminated with air or N2.

Generating ~8000 cuft. of H2  by electrolysis or any other means isn't going to be cheap if you are doing it each time you prep for flight.

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dude6935
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#18, by dude6935, 29 March 2011 07:55 PM

We've defiantly had some thread creep here, this should be in storage http://smallblimps.lefora.com/2010/07/08/airship-storage/page2/#post24

or in ground equipment.
http://smallblimps.lefora.com/2011/03/28/ground-handling-equipment-kit/#post0 

We need to run the numbers on balloon super pressure storage to see if it is a possibility.

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inventing_man
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Re: Wonder if this V shape is something to look into?

#19, by inventing_man, 29 March 2011 08:13 PM

Agreed  100%   Thread creep 

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